Discussion:
Hot Freaks: John Fahey/Leo Kottke
(too old to reply)
Jeff Rubard
2003-12-22 07:29:48 UTC
Permalink
I see there's been a fair amount of discussion here concerning the late
John Fahey, as well as somewhat less about his protege Leo Kottke: and
my impression seems to be that although people interested in what is
somewhat strangely called "roots music" today like these artists, they
don't consider them "old-time". I'd like to make a case that the term
does apply to them, in a fairly specific sense slightly different from
the usual. Fahey and Kottke are rather obviously not revivalists: and
in a way the music is very much of their time, Fahey having been a cult
celebrity and Kottke having had rather major success as a recording
artists. But there is something which differentiates Fahey and Kottke
from acts like the Dead and the Holy Modal Rounders, charged with
bringing folk music up to spec for the Woodstock generation.

As someone said here, you might not want to have charged Fahey with
anything, but this is true not necessarily because he was expecting a
drink from anyone. By the end of his life, Fahey was living in Salem,
Oregon; rather a nice place for most people, but Fahey ended up there
without a guitar (although there was a nice one in the pawn shop). The
radio host "Dr. Demento" heard about this, and came up and bought
Fahey's guitar back: he gave it back to him, saying "this should not
happen". But whether or not you're a fan of Mr. Hansen's radio program
(I've never heard more than snippets), or a fan of Fahey, this action
says a lot about the milieu in which Fahey's music was received and the
effective ingredients within it.

The former "Blind Joe Death's" evocation of rural narrative was frankly
specious, as he was a child of the great 48 and its cities to boot. But
although it is no secret he owed nothing to anybody vis-a-vis his guitar
skills and could thereby have paid for (or been paid for) something
"insanely great" Fahey's conceits are not beside the point, nor
embarrassing; it's not quite as though Edith Piaf decided to take up
picking. Takoma Park Records (named after Fahey's *Destruction of
Takoma Park* album) was a label dedicated to a high-flown aesthetic,
namely the Blakean visionary-and-craftsman: and this is frankly the
function played by the "unfathomable" Fahey, unto death at 61 but not
unto irrelevancy (I expect his records sell better today than at most
points during his life).

Although he has followed rather squarely in Fahey's footprints, Kottke
is neither a visionary nor a craftsman; and although his skills rather
obviously exceed all but comprehension and his records have sold better
from the outset, Kottke is really a more *rural* figure than Fahey,
having been raised in the Southwest and Great Plains states; and
although Fahey's wry imagery was the occasion for some "rustication" I
suspect Kottke has been there from the beginning of *6-And-12-String
Guitar*, "The Driving Of The Year Nail". This song is something other
than a "solo" from a larger ensemble piece; Kottke is not playing any
notes he wants to, other than all of them.

But I think the secret is that this highly "composed" piece, played at a
much faster pace than the other offerings on the record, indicates by
its open texture that this is a "music of parts" -- and that by
extension, Kottke is not a creature of some mythical unitary Southland:
he has something to do off by himself, and apparently others will
oblige. What is this activity? Well, he is bothering a machine; and
it's exciting enough to hold my attention for a while. Was this worth
doing? Does the question apply, and if so, on what authority? I
suspect it does today, and I think that Kottke and Fahey are exempt from
whatever adulation is poured upon them (that is, questionable characters
with respect to the mindset of the present) on account of their
thoroughly idiosyncratic individualism vis-a-vis their art. And that a
great deal of the appeal of the music they evoke derives from something
more than nostalgia about an era that was less than standardized.
Brad Sondahl
2003-12-22 16:48:47 UTC
Permalink
Well, I like both Kottke and Fahey in their early incarnations, both were
clearly rooted in roots music. They both tried to extend themselves into
realms more meaningful for themselves then the general populice, which
sometimes worked and sometimes didn't. I'm beginning to think most
exceptional musicians have to have obsessive personalities to practice the
inordinate amounts of time they must to achieve what they do. Fahey was
clearly a case in point--Leo I'm not sure about.
Brad Sondahl
--
For original art, music, pottery, and literature, visit my homepage
http://sondahl.com
Pottery sales page http://sondahl.freeyellow.com

To reply to me directly, don't forget to take out the "garbage" from my
address.
LukeHiNite
2003-12-22 21:37:07 UTC
Permalink
...And that a
great deal of the appeal of the music they evoke derives from something
more than nostalgia about an era that was less than standardized.
Jeff Rubard
Well, with only days to go in 2003,
this wins the prize for the most pointless and even unfinished post
in this newsgroup. Where's the wrap-up?

Is is that they are two really good
guitar players, one a mystic and one
an athlete? And do you think it's nice music? I like them both and
I don't know where to file their records either.

pvc
Jeff Rubard
2003-12-23 04:03:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by LukeHiNite
...And that a
great deal of the appeal of the music they evoke derives from something
more than nostalgia about an era that was less than standardized.
Jeff Rubard
Well, with only days to go in 2003,
this wins the prize for the most pointless and even unfinished post
in this newsgroup. Where's the wrap-up?
You're a jerk who's overly concerned with other individuals for his own
benefit -- an extraordinarily urban quality. Is that good enough?
Someone else enjoyed the post, and if you don't like it you really can
lump it; I myself thought it was a little over-considered.
Post by LukeHiNite
Is is that they are two really good
guitar players, one a mystic and one
an athlete? And do you think it's nice music? I like them both and
I don't know where to file their records either.
pvc
Yes, roughly (I think of Kottke as something like "Mannheim
Paint-roller"): but the point behind the point is that they really do
belong together although they are quite different, that there can be a
thematic unity between music that is stylistically quite disparate (as I
was suggesting there was between Fahey and Kottke and old-time music per
se).

Jeff Rubard
LukeHiNite
2003-12-23 22:49:51 UTC
Permalink
You're a jerk who's overly concerned with other individuals for his own
benefit -- an extraordinarily urban quality. Is that good enough?
Someone else enjoyed the post, and if you don't like it you really can
lump it; I myself thought it was a little over-considered.
-Jeff Rutabaga

Thanks. Being a jerk I can sympathize with others of
the same ilk who have a need
to blow their nose in the street.

I kind of liked the post, though.
Have you made sure to cross-
post this to Snivelling-Blowhard.net ?


pvc
Jeff Rubard
2003-12-24 03:58:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeff Rubard
You're a jerk who's overly concerned with other individuals for his own
benefit -- an extraordinarily urban quality. Is that good enough?
Someone else enjoyed the post, and if you don't like it you really can
lump it; I myself thought it was a little over-considered.
-Jeff Rutabaga
Oh, that's the funniest iteration yet.
Post by Jeff Rubard
Thanks. Being a jerk I can sympathize with others of
the same ilk who have a need
to blow their nose in the street.
This isn't the street; I know what to do in the street, which is to stay
out of other people's way if possible. Other than that, there really
aren't any rules; you are perfectly welcome to blow your nose, as it
affects nobody but you (I'm pretty "urban" myself, I just wouldn't take
you to visit relatives).
Post by Jeff Rubard
I kind of liked the post, though.
Have you made sure to cross-
post this to Snivelling-Blowhard.net ?
This is pretty weak, as it just flat-out contradicts itself (rather than
twisting a knife); and having now taken it upon myself to look up your
other posts here, you don't really seem like too much of a jerk apart
from this exchange. Let's just say this has been judged to be out of
whack by the locals here and leave it at that.
Joseph Scott
2003-12-23 23:54:15 UTC
Permalink
In my opinion, if Kottke's as interested in old-time music as Stampfel
is, he's keeping it pretty well hid.

Joseph Scott
Steve S
2003-12-24 17:08:35 UTC
Permalink
Department of Folklore, Anthropology, and Landscape Architecture

Southwestern North Carolina State University (East Campus)

Memo From: Dr. Jennifer Greenblatt
Assistant Professor of Folklore, Anthropology, and Landscape Architecture
Associate Editor, Journal of Comparative American Primitive Guitaristry

To: Jeff Rubard

Dear Mr. Rubard,

Thank you for the submission of "Hot Freaks: John Fahey/Leo Kottke",
Rubard, J, et. al. to the Journal. Unfortunately, the decision of the peer
reviewers regarding publication was unfavorable. We also do not recommend
revision and re-submission for future consideration. The comments of the
referees will be included with the returned manuscript.

Sincerely,

Jennifer Greenblatt, Ph. D.
--
______________________________________
Steve Senderoff & Trish Vierling

"...Ya run your E string down oh, I don't know, about three frets...anyway,
it corresponds to the third note on the A string...here's ya tuning..."
.........Tommy Jarrell


http://http://home.comcast.net/~steventrish/start.html
Post by Jeff Rubard
I see there's been a fair amount of discussion here concerning the late
John Fahey, as well as somewhat less about his protege Leo Kottke: and
my impression seems to be that although people interested in what is
somewhat strangely called "roots music" today like these artists, they
don't consider them "old-time". I'd like to make a case that the term
does apply to them, in a fairly specific sense slightly different from
the usual. Fahey and Kottke are rather obviously not revivalists: and
in a way the music is very much of their time, Fahey having been a cult
celebrity and Kottke having had rather major success as a recording
artists. But there is something which differentiates Fahey and Kottke
from acts like the Dead and the Holy Modal Rounders, charged with
bringing folk music up to spec for the Woodstock generation.
As someone said here, you might not want to have charged Fahey with
anything, but this is true not necessarily because he was expecting a
drink from anyone. By the end of his life, Fahey was living in Salem,
Oregon; rather a nice place for most people, but Fahey ended up there
without a guitar (although there was a nice one in the pawn shop). The
radio host "Dr. Demento" heard about this, and came up and bought
Fahey's guitar back: he gave it back to him, saying "this should not
happen". But whether or not you're a fan of Mr. Hansen's radio program
(I've never heard more than snippets), or a fan of Fahey, this action
says a lot about the milieu in which Fahey's music was received and the
effective ingredients within it.
The former "Blind Joe Death's" evocation of rural narrative was frankly
specious, as he was a child of the great 48 and its cities to boot. But
although it is no secret he owed nothing to anybody vis-a-vis his guitar
skills and could thereby have paid for (or been paid for) something
"insanely great" Fahey's conceits are not beside the point, nor
embarrassing; it's not quite as though Edith Piaf decided to take up
picking. Takoma Park Records (named after Fahey's *Destruction of
Takoma Park* album) was a label dedicated to a high-flown aesthetic,
namely the Blakean visionary-and-craftsman: and this is frankly the
function played by the "unfathomable" Fahey, unto death at 61 but not
unto irrelevancy (I expect his records sell better today than at most
points during his life).
Although he has followed rather squarely in Fahey's footprints, Kottke
is neither a visionary nor a craftsman; and although his skills rather
obviously exceed all but comprehension and his records have sold better
from the outset, Kottke is really a more *rural* figure than Fahey,
having been raised in the Southwest and Great Plains states; and
although Fahey's wry imagery was the occasion for some "rustication" I
suspect Kottke has been there from the beginning of *6-And-12-String
Guitar*, "The Driving Of The Year Nail". This song is something other
than a "solo" from a larger ensemble piece; Kottke is not playing any
notes he wants to, other than all of them.
But I think the secret is that this highly "composed" piece, played at a
much faster pace than the other offerings on the record, indicates by
its open texture that this is a "music of parts" -- and that by
he has something to do off by himself, and apparently others will
oblige. What is this activity? Well, he is bothering a machine; and
it's exciting enough to hold my attention for a while. Was this worth
doing? Does the question apply, and if so, on what authority? I
suspect it does today, and I think that Kottke and Fahey are exempt from
whatever adulation is poured upon them (that is, questionable characters
with respect to the mindset of the present) on account of their
thoroughly idiosyncratic individualism vis-a-vis their art. And that a
great deal of the appeal of the music they evoke derives from something
more than nostalgia about an era that was less than standardized.
Jeff Rubard
2003-12-26 16:58:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve S
Department of Folklore, Anthropology, and Landscape Architecture
Southwestern North Carolina State University (East Campus)
Memo From: Dr. Jennifer Greenblatt
Assistant Professor of Folklore, Anthropology, and Landscape Architecture
Associate Editor, Journal of Comparative American Primitive Guitaristry
To: Jeff Rubard
Dear Mr. Rubard,
Thank you for the submission of "Hot Freaks: John Fahey/Leo Kottke",
Rubard, J, et. al. to the Journal. Unfortunately, the decision of the peer
reviewers regarding publication was unfavorable. We also do not recommend
revision and re-submission for future consideration. The comments of the
referees will be included with the returned manuscript.
Sincerely,
Jennifer Greenblatt, Ph. D.
--
______________________________________
Steve Senderoff & Trish Vierling
Now this is really pretty funny. I could whine about how you're
criticizing me for exactly the opposite failings as the other guy, but
what I'll say instead is that this mini-essay is actually built
tougher than academic "cult-stud" work and in my opinion really is
none the better for it. That is to say, it was designed not just to
be a report of guitar primitivism as I found it to be in its various
sociocultural aspects, but also a functioning part of the cultural
scene itself. I used to write for magazines, and that's really the
standard you're held to; you have to be pretty "sho-art" yourself. I
used to be pretty good at it, and I'm not sure what happened. But
maybe it's that the standard you are usually held to on
Usenet/blogs/Amazon/etc. is better for not being as wound-up, and that
people are tired of "impermeable membranes".

Jeff Rubard
Steve S
2003-12-26 19:46:59 UTC
Permalink
from the desk of Dr. Jenny Greenblatt
Southwestern North Carolina State University (East Campus)


Hello Mr Rubard,
glad there are no hard feelings...I wanted to publish it, but the committee
overruled me...at least the papers that come across my desk for J. Comp Am
Prim Guitaristry are more interesting than when I edited Sux/Rules/Bogus: A
Journal of Post-Cognitive Thought...

regards, jenny
--
______________________________________
Steve Senderoff & Trish Vierling

"...Ya run your E string down oh, I don't know, about three frets...anyway,
it corresponds to the third note on the A string...here's ya tuning..."
.........Tommy Jarrell


http://http://home.comcast.net/~steventrish/start.html
Post by Jeff Rubard
Post by Steve S
Department of Folklore, Anthropology, and Landscape Architecture
Southwestern North Carolina State University (East Campus)
Memo From: Dr. Jennifer Greenblatt
Assistant Professor of Folklore, Anthropology, and Landscape
Architecture
Post by Jeff Rubard
Post by Steve S
Associate Editor, Journal of Comparative American Primitive Guitaristry
To: Jeff Rubard
Dear Mr. Rubard,
Thank you for the submission of "Hot Freaks: John Fahey/Leo Kottke",
Rubard, J, et. al. to the Journal. Unfortunately, the decision of the peer
reviewers regarding publication was unfavorable. We also do not recommend
revision and re-submission for future consideration. The comments of the
referees will be included with the returned manuscript.
Sincerely,
Jennifer Greenblatt, Ph. D.
--
______________________________________
Steve Senderoff & Trish Vierling
Now this is really pretty funny. I could whine about how you're
criticizing me for exactly the opposite failings as the other guy, but
what I'll say instead is that this mini-essay is actually built
tougher than academic "cult-stud" work and in my opinion really is
none the better for it. That is to say, it was designed not just to
be a report of guitar primitivism as I found it to be in its various
sociocultural aspects, but also a functioning part of the cultural
scene itself. I used to write for magazines, and that's really the
standard you're held to; you have to be pretty "sho-art" yourself. I
used to be pretty good at it, and I'm not sure what happened. But
maybe it's that the standard you are usually held to on
Usenet/blogs/Amazon/etc. is better for not being as wound-up, and that
people are tired of "impermeable membranes".
Jeff Rubard
Jeff Rubard
2003-12-27 02:42:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve S
from the desk of Dr. Jenny Greenblatt
Southwestern North Carolina State University (East Campus)
Hello Mr Rubard,
glad there are no hard feelings...I wanted to publish it, but the committee
overruled me...at least the papers that come across my desk for J. Comp Am
Prim Guitaristry are more interesting than when I edited Sux/Rules/Bogus: A
Journal of Post-Cognitive Thought...
regards, jenny
Jenny,

I don't find it easy to bear ill will towards constructs, although I
have found certain television programs of the relatively recent past
taxing as a whole; but I'm actually quite concerned about this
purported submission, as I clearly indicated that note was not
intended for academic publication. Ever since I had a charge of
plagarism (whole-cloth, no less) lodged against me I've been a bit
sensitive about the uses to which my words could be put, and find
"horseplay" such as I believed us to be engaging in a little suspect
(although, as I said, I took this to be a frothy enough conceit).
But, more importantly, I would like people to know that I did not
submit to this fanciful journal and that it would certainly be
possible for a pattern of repeated distortion and fabrication of
character traits to be conducted by such means in real life.

Sincerely,
Jeff Rubard
Lyle Lofgren
2003-12-27 16:36:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeff Rubard
Post by Steve S
from the desk of Dr. Jenny Greenblatt
Southwestern North Carolina State University (East Campus)
Hello Mr Rubard,
glad there are no hard feelings...I wanted to publish it, but the committee
overruled me...at least the papers that come across my desk for J. Comp Am
Prim Guitaristry are more interesting than when I edited Sux/Rules/Bogus: A
Journal of Post-Cognitive Thought...
regards, jenny
Jenny,
I don't find it easy to bear ill will towards constructs, although I
have found certain television programs of the relatively recent past
taxing as a whole; but I'm actually quite concerned about this
purported submission, as I clearly indicated that note was not
intended for academic publication. Ever since I had a charge of
plagarism (whole-cloth, no less) lodged against me I've been a bit
sensitive about the uses to which my words could be put, and find
"horseplay" such as I believed us to be engaging in a little suspect
(although, as I said, I took this to be a frothy enough conceit).
But, more importantly, I would like people to know that I did not
submit to this fanciful journal and that it would certainly be
possible for a pattern of repeated distortion and fabrication of
character traits to be conducted by such means in real life.
Sincerely,
Jeff Rubard
I know how you feel. I was really miffed when I found that Dr.
Greenblat had published the complete collection of my internet
postings in the Proceedings of the Old Time Lore on the Internet
Committee (POTLIC). My first thought was to sue, but my
counselor-at-law pointed out a potential defense against my proposed
lawsuit: a variant on the venerable
tree-falling-in-the-forest-with-none-to-hear-it puzzle. Does copyright
violation occur if no one reads it? My lawyer says no, so Dr.
Greenblat wins again!

Lyle
Peter Feldmann
2003-12-28 14:47:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lyle Lofgren
I know how you feel. I was really miffed when I found that Dr.
Greenblat had published the complete collection of my internet
postings in the Proceedings of the Old Time Lore on the Internet
Committee (POTLIC). My first thought was to sue, but my
counselor-at-law pointed out a potential defense against my proposed
lawsuit: a variant on the venerable
tree-falling-in-the-forest-with-none-to-hear-it puzzle. Does copyright
violation occur if no one reads it? My lawyer says no, so Dr.
Greenblat wins again!
Lyle
Hi Lyle,

Happy New Year (in advance!) You got yourself a good lawyer.

=== Portion of "Arkansas Traveler" routine:

Traveler: "I'm a lawyer and a pretty smart one too, do I look it?"
Old-Timer: "Yes. Well, I had to go to a lawyer about this house of
mine."
Trav: "Well, did you get a good lawyer?"
OT: "You bet I did! He owns the house now!"



My lawyer says, never sue anybody what ain't got no money. Another
way to put it is, "Any bird can build a nest, but it isn't every bird
that can lay an egg!" ( - Stan Laurel).

__Peter
http://www.bluegrasswest.com
Jeff Rubard
2003-12-28 19:15:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lyle Lofgren
Post by Jeff Rubard
Post by Steve S
from the desk of Dr. Jenny Greenblatt
Southwestern North Carolina State University (East Campus)
Hello Mr Rubard,
glad there are no hard feelings...I wanted to publish it, but the committee
overruled me...at least the papers that come across my desk for J. Comp Am
Prim Guitaristry are more interesting than when I edited Sux/Rules/Bogus: A
Journal of Post-Cognitive Thought...
regards, jenny
Jenny,
I don't find it easy to bear ill will towards constructs, although I
have found certain television programs of the relatively recent past
taxing as a whole; but I'm actually quite concerned about this
purported submission, as I clearly indicated that note was not
intended for academic publication. Ever since I had a charge of
plagarism (whole-cloth, no less) lodged against me I've been a bit
sensitive about the uses to which my words could be put, and find
"horseplay" such as I believed us to be engaging in a little suspect
(although, as I said, I took this to be a frothy enough conceit).
But, more importantly, I would like people to know that I did not
submit to this fanciful journal and that it would certainly be
possible for a pattern of repeated distortion and fabrication of
character traits to be conducted by such means in real life.
Sincerely,
Jeff Rubard
I know how you feel. I was really miffed when I found that Dr.
Greenblat had published the complete collection of my internet
postings in the Proceedings of the Old Time Lore on the Internet
Committee (POTLIC). My first thought was to sue, but my
counselor-at-law pointed out a potential defense against my proposed
lawsuit: a variant on the venerable
tree-falling-in-the-forest-with-none-to-hear-it puzzle. Does copyright
violation occur if no one reads it? My lawyer says no, so Dr.
Greenblat wins again!
Lyle
No, I can't really relate to you -- I don't feel as though Dr.
Greenblatt is a real person, nor feel the compulsion to act as if it
were so in the absence of fact. Furthermore, I think you should get
another lawyer, a real one if necessary: publishing material of
another's without permission is (as music trading demonstrates) one of
the stickiest of wickets, it's even really kind of a no-brainer. But
maybe there is something you can profitably take away from this
"experience".

Jeff
Jeff Rubard
2003-12-31 20:57:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeff Rubard
Post by Lyle Lofgren
Post by Jeff Rubard
Post by Steve S
from the desk of Dr. Jenny Greenblatt
Southwestern North Carolina State University (East Campus)
Hello Mr Rubard,
glad there are no hard feelings...I wanted to publish it, but the committee
overruled me...at least the papers that come across my desk for J. Comp Am
Prim Guitaristry are more interesting than when I edited Sux/Rules/Bogus: A
Journal of Post-Cognitive Thought...
regards, jenny
Jenny,
I don't find it easy to bear ill will towards constructs, although I
have found certain television programs of the relatively recent past
taxing as a whole; but I'm actually quite concerned about this
purported submission, as I clearly indicated that note was not
intended for academic publication. Ever since I had a charge of
plagarism (whole-cloth, no less) lodged against me I've been a bit
sensitive about the uses to which my words could be put, and find
"horseplay" such as I believed us to be engaging in a little suspect
(although, as I said, I took this to be a frothy enough conceit).
But, more importantly, I would like people to know that I did not
submit to this fanciful journal and that it would certainly be
possible for a pattern of repeated distortion and fabrication of
character traits to be conducted by such means in real life.
Sincerely,
Jeff Rubard
I know how you feel. I was really miffed when I found that Dr.
Greenblat had published the complete collection of my internet
postings in the Proceedings of the Old Time Lore on the Internet
Committee (POTLIC). My first thought was to sue, but my
counselor-at-law pointed out a potential defense against my proposed
lawsuit: a variant on the venerable
tree-falling-in-the-forest-with-none-to-hear-it puzzle. Does copyright
violation occur if no one reads it? My lawyer says no, so Dr.
Greenblat wins again!
Lyle
No, I can't really relate to you -- I don't feel as though Dr.
Greenblatt is a real person, nor feel the compulsion to act as if it
were so in the absence of fact. Furthermore, I think you should get
another lawyer, a real one if necessary: publishing material of
another's without permission is (as music trading demonstrates) one of
the stickiest of wickets, it's even really kind of a no-brainer. But
maybe there is something you can profitably take away from this
"experience".
Jeff
Although I have to say, it probably isn't that I wouldn't take Jenny
to one of my local bars (though this is true).
Jeffrey Rubard
2022-01-17 04:43:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeff Rubard
Post by Jeff Rubard
Post by Lyle Lofgren
Post by Jeff Rubard
from the desk of Dr. Jenny Greenblatt
Southwestern North Carolina State University (East Campus)
Hello Mr Rubard,
glad there are no hard feelings...I wanted to publish it, but the committee
overruled me...at least the papers that come across my desk for J. Comp Am
Prim Guitaristry are more interesting than when I edited Sux/Rules/Bogus: A
Journal of Post-Cognitive Thought...
regards, jenny
Jenny,
I don't find it easy to bear ill will towards constructs, although I
have found certain television programs of the relatively recent past
taxing as a whole; but I'm actually quite concerned about this
purported submission, as I clearly indicated that note was not
intended for academic publication. Ever since I had a charge of
plagarism (whole-cloth, no less) lodged against me I've been a bit
sensitive about the uses to which my words could be put, and find
"horseplay" such as I believed us to be engaging in a little suspect
(although, as I said, I took this to be a frothy enough conceit).
But, more importantly, I would like people to know that I did not
submit to this fanciful journal and that it would certainly be
possible for a pattern of repeated distortion and fabrication of
character traits to be conducted by such means in real life.
Sincerely,
Jeff Rubard
I know how you feel. I was really miffed when I found that Dr.
Greenblat had published the complete collection of my internet
postings in the Proceedings of the Old Time Lore on the Internet
Committee (POTLIC). My first thought was to sue, but my
counselor-at-law pointed out a potential defense against my proposed
lawsuit: a variant on the venerable
tree-falling-in-the-forest-with-none-to-hear-it puzzle. Does copyright
violation occur if no one reads it? My lawyer says no, so Dr.
Greenblat wins again!
Lyle
No, I can't really relate to you -- I don't feel as though Dr.
Greenblatt is a real person, nor feel the compulsion to act as if it
were so in the absence of fact. Furthermore, I think you should get
another lawyer, a real one if necessary: publishing material of
another's without permission is (as music trading demonstrates) one of
the stickiest of wickets, it's even really kind of a no-brainer. But
maybe there is something you can profitably take away from this
"experience".
Jeff
Although I have to say, it probably isn't that I wouldn't take Jenny
to one of my local bars (though this is true).
2022 Update: Fahey was a long-time resident of Oregon, living in the Salem area.
d***@panix.com
2022-01-17 05:06:48 UTC
Permalink
In article <e7572b5a-f4b0-4e78-9b08-***@googlegroups.com>,
Jeffrey Rubard <***@gmail.com> wrote:

[snip]
Post by Jeffrey Rubard
2022 Update: Fahey was a long-time resident of Oregon, living in the Salem area.
When I learned of Mr Fahey's demise (almost a perfect two decades back) my
thought was 'May he find victory over the demons he battled.'

DD
Jeffrey Rubard
2022-01-23 09:14:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@panix.com
[snip]
Post by Jeffrey Rubard
2022 Update: Fahey was a long-time resident of Oregon, living in the Salem area.
When I learned of Mr Fahey's demise (almost a perfect two decades back) my
thought was 'May he find victory over the demons he battled.'
DD
It was a whole style of "Oregon cultural living", where you made an economically
marginal product and thought well of yourself and ill of the world. Result:
Government jobs, welfare, subsidized apartments. (The author Richard
Brautigan was like this too.)
d***@panix.com
2022-01-23 20:41:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeffrey Rubard
Post by d***@panix.com
[snip]
Post by Jeffrey Rubard
2022 Update: Fahey was a long-time resident of Oregon, living in the Salem area.
When I learned of Mr Fahey's demise (almost a perfect two decades back) my
thought was 'May he find victory over the demons he battled.'
It was a whole style of "Oregon cultural living", where you made an economically
marginal product and thought well of yourself and ill of the world.
A bit of research shows that Mr Fahey began recording in 1958 and didn't
more to Oregon until nearly a quarter-century later. Quite the prescient
fellow!
Post by Jeffrey Rubard
Government jobs, welfare, subsidized apartments. (The author Richard
Brautigan was like this too.)
Another bit of research might reveal that Mr Brautigan ('diagnosed' with
several profound disorders) left Oregon for San Francisco in 1954,
returned several times 'for lack of money' but spent the majority of his
productive years out-of-state.

Who's going to let a few tawdry facts get in the way of '(g)overnment
jobs, welfare, subsidized apartments'? Certainly not a man worthy of his
rant. Howl on, Mr Rubard... did you know that I saw the best minds of my
generation destroyed by madness, starving hysterical naked, dragging
themselves through the negro streets at dawn looking for an angry fix?

DD
Jeffrey Rubard
2022-01-23 23:50:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@panix.com
Post by Jeffrey Rubard
Post by d***@panix.com
[snip]
Post by Jeffrey Rubard
2022 Update: Fahey was a long-time resident of Oregon, living in the Salem area.
When I learned of Mr Fahey's demise (almost a perfect two decades back) my
thought was 'May he find victory over the demons he battled.'
It was a whole style of "Oregon cultural living", where you made an economically
marginal product and thought well of yourself and ill of the world.
A bit of research shows that Mr Fahey began recording in 1958 and didn't
more to Oregon until nearly a quarter-century later. Quite the prescient
fellow!
Post by Jeffrey Rubard
Government jobs, welfare, subsidized apartments. (The author Richard
Brautigan was like this too.)
Another bit of research might reveal that Mr Brautigan ('diagnosed' with
several profound disorders) left Oregon for San Francisco in 1954,
returned several times 'for lack of money' but spent the majority of his
productive years out-of-state.
Or, er, maybe that's just a story. (There's a lot of "just a story", which
you should know well enough yourself.) The actual man lived until quite
recently and we were friendly in his later years, drinking coffee together.
(We would never discuss our work; I think he was more aware of mine
than I of his.)
Post by d***@panix.com
Who's going to let a few tawdry facts get in the way of '(g)overnment
jobs, welfare, subsidized apartments'? Certainly not a man worthy of his
rant. Howl on, Mr Rubard... did you know that I saw the best minds of my
generation destroyed by madness, starving hysterical naked, dragging
themselves through the negro streets at dawn looking for an angry fix?
"Tawdry" indeed if they're actually untruths. (Are you a contemporary
of Ginsberg? Maybe you should hang it up, oldtimer; the brain does
get soft over the years, f'reals.)
Post by d***@panix.com
DD
d***@panix.com
2022-01-24 00:58:30 UTC
Permalink
[snip]
Post by Jeffrey Rubard
Post by d***@panix.com
Post by Jeffrey Rubard
Government jobs, welfare, subsidized apartments. (The author Richard
Brautigan was like this too.)
Another bit of research might reveal that Mr Brautigan ('diagnosed' with
several profound disorders) left Oregon for San Francisco in 1954,
returned several times 'for lack of money' but spent the majority of his
productive years out-of-state.
Or, er, maybe that's just a story. (There's a lot of "just a story", which
you should know well enough yourself.) The actual man lived until quite
recently and we were friendly in his later years, drinking coffee together.
(We would never discuss our work; I think he was more aware of mine
than I of his.)
Never mind how poets can tell lies about themselves... according to
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/9987/richard-gary-brautigan he
committed suicide in 1984 at the age of forty-nine.

It so very nice to meet someone besides me whose values of 'quite
recently' include 'thirty-eight years ago'! Did you fight with the Blues
or the Greys?

(according to https://twitter.com/japproximately the only one of you has
'published since the 90s (sic)'... and yet a man dead for a decade was
more aware of your works than you of his)
Post by Jeffrey Rubard
Post by d***@panix.com
Who's going to let a few tawdry facts get in the way of '(g)overnment
jobs, welfare, subsidized apartments'? Certainly not a man worthy of his
rant. Howl on, Mr Rubard... did you know that I saw the best minds of my
generation destroyed by madness, starving hysterical naked, dragging
themselves through the negro streets at dawn looking for an angry fix?
"Tawdry" indeed if they're actually untruths. (Are you a contemporary
of Ginsberg? Maybe you should hang it up, oldtimer; the brain does
get soft over the years, f'reals.)
Sounds like the Voice of Experience, Mr Rubard. My own steel-trap mind
may have long since rusted but youngsters might learn something - or at
least garner a bit of mirth! - from stepping back to watch an old man
dance.

Not 'f'reals'... for a certainty, or as much of a certainty that a 'might'
might muster.

DD
Jeffrey Rubard
2022-01-24 03:25:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@panix.com
[snip]
Post by Jeffrey Rubard
Post by d***@panix.com
Post by Jeffrey Rubard
Government jobs, welfare, subsidized apartments. (The author Richard
Brautigan was like this too.)
Another bit of research might reveal that Mr Brautigan ('diagnosed' with
several profound disorders) left Oregon for San Francisco in 1954,
returned several times 'for lack of money' but spent the majority of his
productive years out-of-state.
Or, er, maybe that's just a story. (There's a lot of "just a story", which
you should know well enough yourself.) The actual man lived until quite
recently and we were friendly in his later years, drinking coffee together.
(We would never discuss our work; I think he was more aware of mine
than I of his.)
Never mind how poets can tell lies about themselves... according to
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/9987/richard-gary-brautigan he
committed suicide in 1984 at the age of forty-nine.
It so very nice to meet someone besides me whose values of 'quite
recently' include 'thirty-eight years ago'! Did you fight with the Blues
or the Greys?
Nutbag, these "canned cons" have reached their expiration date.
The individual I referred to died within the last five years. Si,
es la verdad. (Did he in addition type the MSS of the works of
"Richard Brautigan" and that's just a story? Like, it could be, toad.)
Post by d***@panix.com
(according to https://twitter.com/japproximately the only one of you has
'published since the 90s (sic)'... and yet a man dead for a decade was
more aware of your works than you of his)
My friend who was alive as of our coffee dates in the 2010s? So "clevah"
of you to have turned the corner into literally schizoid statements, negating
my merely "probative" ones that he knew something of my writing but
we didn't discuss it.
Post by d***@panix.com
Post by Jeffrey Rubard
Post by d***@panix.com
Who's going to let a few tawdry facts get in the way of '(g)overnment
jobs, welfare, subsidized apartments'? Certainly not a man worthy of his
rant. Howl on, Mr Rubard... did you know that I saw the best minds of my
generation destroyed by madness, starving hysterical naked, dragging
themselves through the negro streets at dawn looking for an angry fix?
"Tawdry" indeed if they're actually untruths. (Are you a contemporary
of Ginsberg? Maybe you should hang it up, oldtimer; the brain does
get soft over the years, f'reals.)
Sounds like the Voice of Experience, Mr Rubard. My own steel-trap mind
may have long since rusted but youngsters might learn something - or at
least garner a bit of mirth! - from stepping back to watch an old man
dance.
That was a con when you learned it at 25, and that's basic neuroscientific
gerontology, not "the power of positive thinking" applied merely to oneself.
Post by d***@panix.com
Not 'f'reals'... for a certainty, or as much of a certainty that a 'might'
might muster.
Like, scientists really think it, it's just kind of a "bummer". Like where
gravity eventually does go etc.

Jeff Rubard
d***@panix.com
2022-01-24 06:28:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeffrey Rubard
Post by d***@panix.com
[snip]
Post by Jeffrey Rubard
Post by d***@panix.com
Post by Jeffrey Rubard
Government jobs, welfare, subsidized apartments. (The author Richard
Brautigan was like this too.)
Another bit of research might reveal that Mr Brautigan ('diagnosed' with
several profound disorders) left Oregon for San Francisco in 1954,
returned several times 'for lack of money' but spent the majority of his
productive years out-of-state.
Or, er, maybe that's just a story. (There's a lot of "just a story", which
you should know well enough yourself.) The actual man lived until quite
recently and we were friendly in his later years, drinking coffee together.
(We would never discuss our work; I think he was more aware of mine
than I of his.)
Never mind how poets can tell lies about themselves... according to
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/9987/richard-gary-brautigan he
committed suicide in 1984 at the age of forty-nine.
It so very nice to meet someone besides me whose values of 'quite
recently' include 'thirty-eight years ago'! Did you fight with the Blues
or the Greys?
Nutbag, these "canned cons" have reached their expiration date.
The individual I referred to died within the last five years. Si,
es la verdad.
I've provided documentation that the Gentle Reader can interpret as seen
fit, muchacho. It'll be easy for you to prove yourself right by providing
a URL to anything about 'the actual man who lived quite recently' you
blithered about above.

I'll wait for that and then, perhaps, patiently instruct you on showing a
bit of appropriate decency of language to your elders.

Get hopping, youngster, everyone's watching (everyone's watching the
UseNet in 2022?), the clock's ticking and you're failing, badly.

(now let's all wait for the angry 'I don't gotta prove nothin' to you!'
that any petulant prevaricator issues)

DD
Jeffrey Rubard
2022-01-24 15:01:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@panix.com
Post by Jeffrey Rubard
Post by d***@panix.com
[snip]
Post by Jeffrey Rubard
Post by d***@panix.com
Post by Jeffrey Rubard
Government jobs, welfare, subsidized apartments. (The author Richard
Brautigan was like this too.)
Another bit of research might reveal that Mr Brautigan ('diagnosed' with
several profound disorders) left Oregon for San Francisco in 1954,
returned several times 'for lack of money' but spent the majority of his
productive years out-of-state.
Or, er, maybe that's just a story. (There's a lot of "just a story", which
you should know well enough yourself.) The actual man lived until quite
recently and we were friendly in his later years, drinking coffee together.
(We would never discuss our work; I think he was more aware of mine
than I of his.)
Never mind how poets can tell lies about themselves... according to
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/9987/richard-gary-brautigan he
committed suicide in 1984 at the age of forty-nine.
It so very nice to meet someone besides me whose values of 'quite
recently' include 'thirty-eight years ago'! Did you fight with the Blues
or the Greys?
Nutbag, these "canned cons" have reached their expiration date.
The individual I referred to died within the last five years. Si,
es la verdad.
I've provided documentation that the Gentle Reader can interpret as seen
fit, muchacho. It'll be easy for you to prove yourself right by providing
a URL to anything about 'the actual man who lived quite recently' you
blithered about above.
OMG, Gigi. The facts of composition of literary works are whatever they
fucking are, not what they taught you to say in Ross Perot Class.
Out of concern for his living family I'd not say more, usw.
Post by d***@panix.com
I'll wait for that and then, perhaps, patiently instruct you on showing a
bit of appropriate decency of language to your elders.
You're not my elder. You're an older person inimical to me.
(See how actually veracious language works?)
Post by d***@panix.com
Get hopping, youngster, everyone's watching (everyone's watching the
UseNet in 2022?), the clock's ticking and you're failing, badly.
Certainly not if they're "rigmaroles" from 1996 you're uncorking.
"The second you can prove Ricky Martin is your dream boat, you
little perv, I guess we'll have it. Otherwise you need to handle all
your own gayness"
Post by d***@panix.com
(now let's all wait for the angry 'I don't gotta prove nothin' to you!'
that any petulant prevaricator issues)
I guess you are the non-petulant prevaricator? (These utterances
are intended as true and "to the point", BTW.)
d***@panix.com
2022-01-24 18:56:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jeffrey Rubard
Post by d***@panix.com
Post by Jeffrey Rubard
Post by d***@panix.com
[snip]
Post by Jeffrey Rubard
Post by d***@panix.com
Post by Jeffrey Rubard
Government jobs, welfare, subsidized apartments. (The author Richard
Brautigan was like this too.)
Another bit of research might reveal that Mr Brautigan ('diagnosed' with
several profound disorders) left Oregon for San Francisco in 1954,
returned several times 'for lack of money' but spent the majority of his
productive years out-of-state.
Or, er, maybe that's just a story. (There's a lot of "just a story", which
you should know well enough yourself.) The actual man lived until quite
recently and we were friendly in his later years, drinking coffee together.
(We would never discuss our work; I think he was more aware of mine
than I of his.)
Never mind how poets can tell lies about themselves... according to
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/9987/richard-gary-brautigan he
committed suicide in 1984 at the age of forty-nine.
It so very nice to meet someone besides me whose values of 'quite
recently' include 'thirty-eight years ago'! Did you fight with the Blues
or the Greys?
Nutbag, these "canned cons" have reached their expiration date.
The individual I referred to died within the last five years. Si,
es la verdad.
I've provided documentation that the Gentle Reader can interpret as seen
fit, muchacho. It'll be easy for you to prove yourself right by providing
a URL to anything about 'the actual man who lived quite recently' you
blithered about above.
OMG, Gigi.
Anyone who needs to can see that no documentation was provided, just a few
bellicose schoolyardisms and a rhodomontade of deflections.

Now, watch how a man leaves a table as a whole-cloth fabricator posts
claims of Glorious Victory.

DD
Jeffrey Rubard
2022-01-24 21:44:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@panix.com
Post by Jeffrey Rubard
Post by d***@panix.com
Post by Jeffrey Rubard
Post by d***@panix.com
[snip]
Post by Jeffrey Rubard
Post by d***@panix.com
Post by Jeffrey Rubard
Government jobs, welfare, subsidized apartments. (The author Richard
Brautigan was like this too.)
Another bit of research might reveal that Mr Brautigan ('diagnosed' with
several profound disorders) left Oregon for San Francisco in 1954,
returned several times 'for lack of money' but spent the majority of his
productive years out-of-state.
Or, er, maybe that's just a story. (There's a lot of "just a story", which
you should know well enough yourself.) The actual man lived until quite
recently and we were friendly in his later years, drinking coffee together.
(We would never discuss our work; I think he was more aware of mine
than I of his.)
Never mind how poets can tell lies about themselves... according to
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/9987/richard-gary-brautigan he
committed suicide in 1984 at the age of forty-nine.
It so very nice to meet someone besides me whose values of 'quite
recently' include 'thirty-eight years ago'! Did you fight with the Blues
or the Greys?
Nutbag, these "canned cons" have reached their expiration date.
The individual I referred to died within the last five years. Si,
es la verdad.
I've provided documentation that the Gentle Reader can interpret as seen
fit, muchacho. It'll be easy for you to prove yourself right by providing
a URL to anything about 'the actual man who lived quite recently' you
blithered about above.
OMG, Gigi.
Anyone who needs to can see that no documentation was provided, just a few
bellicose schoolyardisms and a rhodomontade of deflections.
Is "rhodomontade" supposed to be a "gimme" word? I don't know what it means.
Post by d***@panix.com
Now, watch how a man leaves a table as a whole-cloth fabricator posts
claims of Glorious Victory.
Is that you you're talking about?
Post by d***@panix.com
DD
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